Okay, so the creatures you fought at the end of yesterday's game were too much for you. There are, broadly speaking, two reasons for this: damage reduction and spell immunity.
The damage reduction of the Gladiatrix is 10/good. This means that they take 10 fewer points of damage from any attack that is not made with a good-aligned weapon. And, unlike previous versions of the game, magic weapons do not supercede other weapons, so it really does need to be good weapons.
Applying the damage reduction, the top two warriors in the group, the fighter and the paladin, are the only ones who can harm these creatures, doing a maximum of 3 and 7 points, respectively (actually, not quite true - a maximum damage sneak attack from the rogue can do 1 point of damage. But the Gladiatrix has improved uncanny dodge, and so cannot be flat-footed and cannot be flanked, something I forgot yesterday).
However, the creatures are quite easy to hit ("only" AC 21, so the top warriors have a 55% chance of hitting with their main attack). So, a character with Power Attack would have a decent chance of doing damage, especially with a two-handed weapon. More to the point, if armed with good aligned weapons, the party should find these creatures beatable, if not easy.
The spell immunity is a trickier beast. There are two aspects to this, the specific and the general. Generally speaking, the Gladiatrix has SR 18, meaning that the current sorcerer has a 50% chance of affecting the creature with a given spell. Yesterday, this meant that no spells seemed to work, but in general it shouldn't be so extreme in effect.
However, the current sorcerer has a bigger problem against the Gladiatrix: his spells are blocked. The most powerful spell he has is hold person which, of course, doesn't work against outsiders. The next most powerful is flaming sphere, which is blocked by her specific immunity to fire. This effectively means the sorcerer is reduced to magic missile as his most effective spell against these creatures, which is not a good thing.
Now, I've commented about the sorcerer's lack of flexibility before, and don't intend to address it further here. Basically, once he reaches 7th level, Luc should see this problem reduced somewhat (he gains a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spell - I recommend choosing spells that will do a variety of energy damage types, so perhaps lightning bolt, or a spell that does cold, acid or sonic damage. Or perhaps Forceblast from the Book of Eldritch Might, which works like fireball except that it does d4's of damage instead of d6's, but which does force damage. No creature has immunity to force damage, and there are no spells that grant protection against force damage, so only a creature's spell resistance would protect it. Of course, against most creatures, fireball is better, as it does most damage. So it's a trade-off.)
Where was I?
Oh, yes, sorcerers. Anyway, a sorcerer's choice of spells absolutely should cause him problems from time to time. On the other hand, he should also reap the rewards of being able to cast lots of spells, again from time to time. Thus, it's not entirely inappropriate to find the Gladiatrices cause problems, given the fairly huge effectiveness of hold person against the minotaurs. (It's also a good argument for the selection of metamagic feats, since an empowered magic missile could have been quite useful yesterday. And we certainly need arguments for metamagic feats, as they're generally too expensive to be worthwhile.)
The damage reduction is a rather more tricky matter, as it transformed a tough but doable encounter into a near total party kill.
The answer here is one of research and preparation. With a successful knowledge(the planes) check, it should be possible not only to identify the creature involved, but also the specifics of its damage reduction. The party could then cast align weapon, and the problem disappears. Similarly, the party should stock up on silver weapons when they're expecting to meet werewolves, cold iron weapons for fey, and so on. It's the Buffy model, where they inevitably hit the books to find out what they're dealing with, and how to defeat it.
(Of course, that wouldn't have helped the current group, since I don't think anyone has knoweldge(the planes), so you're screwed. But that's not my fault. Anyway, the use of align weapon when fighting demons of various sorts is an eminently reasonable course of action, so there's nothing stopping you from doing that next time, if Talran wants to.)
Upon re-reading it, a lot of this post comes off as me being defensive about my choice of monsters (which did, to be fair, almost kill the party again). I'm not really, since I don't see a big problem in pitting the PCs against tough opponents, or even against opponents that they can't beat. However, yesterday's opponents were a lot tougher than I expected, and I do think there are worthwhile things to say about why that is.
Anyway, you all survived, so no harm done.
Archived comment by Andrew:
ReplyDeleteI think the problem yesterday was the usual problem, the group didn't know what they were going to face and this is why a wizard would come more in use than the sorceror IMO. In other certain situations the sorcerer would be powerful ally for the group such as using Hold Person to good effect, especially against the king. Okay so it wasn't supposed to work against him but it still showed how effective it could be for the group if we can get the fighters near the enemy before it is cast.
I can see our groups running away from combats more if we can't deal with certain creatures, which is only natural and expected in some cases. I was aiming towards building my sorceror as someone who summoned other creatures a lot, although I realised at this moment in time it's almost useless unless as a delaying action since they have about 13hp each with Monster Summoning II. One thing I laughed at was even in the PHB it recommended having another spell caster if someone went a sorcerer.
As for spell choices at next level I was planning on more offensive spells such as Lightning Bolt so I think I'll go with your recommendations, then take empowered magic in the spell Forceblast if I get a feat at 7th level.
Archived comment by me:
ReplyDeleteAndrew wrote:
it's almost useless unless as a delaying action since they have about 13hp each with Monster Summoning II
Bear in mind that the Augment Summoning feat you have gives all creatures you summon a +4 bonus to Strength and to Constitution, over and above what the sheets say. In real terms, this means they get:
+2 to attack rolls
+2 damage
+2 hit points/hit dice (usually +4 hp for MSII)
+2 to Fort saves
All of which makes them a bit less pathetic. However, it is true that the various summon monster spells are, indeed, usually only worthwhile if the caster uses them as his top or second top level of spells (that is, a 6th level sorcerer would find some benefit with summon monster II or III, but not with summon monster I, as the creatures will just die too quickly).
Additionally, most of the summoned celestial creatures have the smite evil ability, usable once per day, which should enable them to do some damage even to creatures with damage reduction.
Example: summoned riding dog has bite +3 (+5 with Aug Summon). Upon being summoned, it charges a gladiatrix with a bite attack (and smite), gaining a total +7 to the attack roll. Thus, it requires a 14 or better on the dice roll to hit. The damage from the attack, if successful, is 1d6+7, which has a good chance of actually scoring damage. So, not entirely useless.
(Except that the Gladiatrix gains an attack of opportunity, needs a 2 to hit, does 2d6+10 damage, and the dog has 17 hit points (with Aug Summon). So, I guess it's not that good after all.)
Summon monster III is rather better. A celestial bison (with Aug Summon) has a gore attack with +10 to hit, 1d8+11 damage and +5 on the smite. The Gladiatrix still gets an attack of opportunity, and still only needs a 2 to hit, but the bison has 47 hit points, so can't be killed right away.
All of which puts it probably on a par with hold person as an attack spell, since although hold person is devastating at times, it can also be very limited. Likewise, fireball and lightning bolt are hugely effective when they do work, probably moreso than summon monster III, they are also blocked by spell resistance, and can be negated entirely by a specific immunity, neither of which is true with the summon spells (to be fair, summon spells are negated with a simple protection from good spell).
So, it's all a trade-off, which huge numbers of options available. Which is a good thing, unless you're a sorcerer with only one third-level spell to choose. My advice? Invest in a bunch of scrolls.
Archived comment by Mort:
ReplyDeleteWell if anyone in our groud had a clue how to fight demons we could have been prepared. I mean, we were told there were demons around, so surely it would have been a good idea to ask around if anyone knew the best way to kick some demon butt. But nah, we just rushed headlong into the enternal doom of the labyrinth. Way to go team!
Next time (if there'll ever be such a time) we should make sure we know atleast something about what we are up against.
Archived comment by Johannes:
ReplyDeleteoh well team, seems like you got your arse properly kicked this time. let's see what happens when the power that is my dice return....
I guess nothing and I would bet that my dice are worse than even stephen's
Archived comment by Andrew:
ReplyDeleteStephen's dice seem to be turning against us with quite a few possible criticals, though mostly against Roger so that was okay. Thing is most of the time we'll never know what demons we are going to face until we met them, so research would be pointless. For example, who would've guessed we would face two Gladiatrix?
Archived comment by me:
ReplyDeleteGood point about not expecting Gladiatrices. I'll try to drop in more forewarning (although there was some - the earlier encounters with easier demons, the references to warriors who had taken over the tribe, and such. However...
It's also important for the party to take a hand in looking for information on their foes. Hence the value of scouting missions, divination spells, and the like.
Of course, the maze you were in didn't allow for easy scouting, as all the doors were solid and closed, which is a problem, and the sorcerer doesn't have easy access to divination spells, so that's also something I'll need to consider.
My dice are being particularly vicious, aren't they? Especially when Gary moved into combat, was unconcerned about an attack of opportunity, and I rolled two natural 20's, almost killing the cleric.