This weekend I've been thinking about the damage that Monks do with their unarmed attacks, and also the role of Monk weapons in the game. Today I looked up the actual values, and have come to the conclusion that Wizards of the Coast screwed up not once, but twice.
A Medium Monk at 1st level does 1d6 points of damage with an unarmed attack, with a critical of 20 x2. At 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th level, this goes up by one die type. So, 1d8 at 4th level, 1d10 at 8th level, 1d12 at 12th level, and 1d20 at 16th level. A Small Monk at 1st level does 1d4 points of damage, and goes up dice types at the same rate. So, they should do 1d6 at 4th level, 1d8 at 8th level, 1d10 at 12th level, and 1d12 at 16th level. But instead they do 2d6 at 16th level.
According to the DMG, when dealing with scaling weapons up and down in size, the dice type progression basically goes as follows: 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8...
So, I reckon the damage dice for Medium Monks are wrong. They should get 2d6 at 12th level, and 2d8 at 16th level and above.
That was today's discovery. However, my real reason for considering this whole issue was Monk weapons, which are utterly useless in the game. When fighting with a Monk weapon (kama, nunchaku or siangham), the Monk gets to use his improved UBAB. However, he does the base damage of the weapon in all cases. This being 1d6 damage, with a critical of 20 x2.
What this means, in real terms, is that no Monk in his right mind will actually use a Monk weapon, since they're better off just attacking unarmed (okay, unless they find a magical weapon). And no other character will use one of these weapons, since they're Exotic, and so require a dedicated Feat for use.
Now, frankly, this is just daft. Firstly, there's nothing about the kama (I think - it may be the siangham) that makes it inherently difficult to use. Similarly, the nunchaku is basically just a flail. So, these weapons really should just be Simple or Martial weapons, to match their damage potential and the manner in which they're used. (I'll also advocate giving the nunchaku a 20 x3 critical, because I'd make this a Martial weapon, and the others simple.) This makes these weapons competitive for a non-Monk to use, as well as better reflecting the reality of their use and form.
However, I'd like to see Monks having some sort of a trade-off to make whether to use a weapon or not, and their choice of weapon should really reflect their fighting style. Therefore, I would suggest that a Monk using Monk weapons gets some sort of a special effect. So for instance, perhaps a Monk using Sai (which aren't even in the core book, but would be Simple weapons doing 1d6, 20 x2) might gain the ability to make Disarm attempts without drawing an attack of opportunity. The Monk with nunchaku would simply get the benefit of a greater critical damage. I'd need to check on the other weapons, but I reckon the kama would probably give the effects of the Dodge feat.
In addition, I'd allow a Monk using a Monk weapon to use his unarmed damage rating. To keep fighting unarmed competitive, Monks should be able to treat their unarmed attacks (only) as being magical, as per the Ki Strike special ability.
What do you think?
Archived comment by Mort:
ReplyDeleteDamage.. well that's one of the things that's wrong with the class. Amongst others are:
Decent Monks will have to have four good stats (Dex, Str, Con, Wis) to be of any use.
They get d8 hitpoints when they are expected to be in the middle of fighting.
They can't have other classes.
Magic weapons are mostly useless at higher levels.
They do get three good saves, I guess that's of some use.
They also get the highest damage in the game at really high levels (1d20)
I seem to remember from somewhere that a monk's fists gain a virtual enhancement bonus as the monk goes up in levels, so that each increase in damage also adds one to this virtual bonus, used to damage things with damage reduction/etc. Or maybe I was just smoking crack and imagining things?
On another note, yes most monk weapons are quite simple to use and shouldn't really be exotic at all, but I wouldn't put the nunchaku in there, never ever. If you ever tried using one you would know why. It's not anywhere close to a flail, unless you include catching the pointy ball thing in your armpit and bounding it off the back off your neck in your flail use. Nunchakus work by accelerating one part of the two sticks into a suitable high speed (enough to break most peoples bones) then launching it at some hapless bastard. But then again, that's real-life, in D&D it's just a sucky d6 damage weapon which no-one would bother spending a feat on.
Archived comment by me:
ReplyDeleteI'm willing to bet that these won't be fixed in the new books :-(
Anyway, here's my thoughts on the problems you highlighted about Monks:
Multi-ability dependency: This is a distinct problem, and one shared by the Paladin and the Psion. These classes should therefore be slightly better than the norm to account for this phenomenon.
Hit Points: At 1st level, a Monk is only 2 hit points behind a Fighter. For every level thereafter, add 1 to the total. That doesn't seem so bad, although I wouldn't want to be in a party where the Monk was the only ass-kicker.
Multi-class restrictions: Bad rule. Bad, bad rule. Should be removed in the new books, and definately isn't being removed :-(
Magic Weapons: Very true. As I noted, there should be some sort of scaling of weapon damage when used by Monks. Actually, John Wick put it best on RPGnet, where he said that if you put any weapon in the hands of a trained killer, it doesn't matter what weapon, you'll still be dead.
On the other hand:
Saves: Best in the game. This is good.
Highest damage in the game: This is a whopping great mistake. The progression should go d6, d8, d10, 2d6, 2d8. Reduce by 1 die type for Small Monks.
Ignoring damage reduction: This is the Ki strike ability, which Monks do indeed get. This gives no additional bonus to hit or damage, but it does cause their natural attacks to be considered magical for the purposes of damage reduction. However, it's tied directly to level, not to the unarmed damage increases (and I can't be bothered looking up the progression again). Anyway, this is being made faster in the new rules, but not otherwise changed.
Nunchaku
I've never tried using nunchaku. I suspect I'd be entirely incompetent with it. However, the same is true of every other weapon out there (except for the shortbow and air rifle. Oh, and darts), so I'm not exactly a good scale for how difficult a weapon is to use :-)
The problem with the nunchaku at present is exactly as you say - the damage is too low for the Exotic category. Therefore, they should be either reduced in difficulty or increased in damage. That's why I suggested going with Simple for the kama and siangham, but Martial for the nunchaku. I was also advocating increasing the critical to x3, making it the weapon of choice for the Monk who just wants to do the most damage he can.
If it remains an Exotic Weapon, it probably wants to go to 1d8 damage, with a x3 critical.
And yes, I know that nunchaku techniques are different from those used with a flail, but I'm not convinced they are more difficult to master. Consider: why should a Fighter, who's trained in virtually every method of raining death on his foes ever devised, still be totally incompetent with two bits of wood tied together with string? (Okay, I exaggerate. A lot.)
Archived comment by Mort:
ReplyDeleteHit points: Well, looking purely at the dice, yes a Monk is not that far behind a Fighter. But taken into account that the Monk probaby won't have a high Con. Personally I'd list that as the least useful attribute of the four a Monk needs high. The Monk will probably have a paltry +1 or maybe if the player rolls like a god (or cheats) +2. (+5 for cheating.) I don't see any damage in letting the poor guy have a d10 as hitpoints to make up for the multi-ability dependency he has got.
Magic weapons: Ah, the (in)famous 'John Wick does d20' on rpg.net. I love the smell of flames in the morning...
Highest damage in the game: Umm.. but 2d8 is still the highest damage in the game though. :)
Granted it's four points off the full d20, but still more than a fighter with a greatsword. (Well not really, if the figher is a strong bastard and wields his weapon two-handed he'd probably win, but just looking at pure dice numbers.)
Nunchaku: Oh, missed the martial part of your last post, my pardons. Putting it as a martial weapon does make a lot more sense, I'd recon it's about as hard to learn how to swing a mace without braining oneself as it is to twirl two sticks without hitting the wrong set of nads.
Archived comment by me:
ReplyDeleteHit points: Fair enough.
Highest damage: Also true. I've been giving this issue some more thought, considering the impact of my suggestion in light of magical weapons, and particularly flaming weapons and the like. Once a Fighter gets a greatsword of flaming, or whatever, the 2d8 ceases to be the highest damage in the game (although 1d20 remains up there). The problem I've encountered, though, is that a Monk with nunchaku of flaming would get something like 6 attacks a round, all at 2d8+1d6 damage, which is too much benefit from a fairly weak item. I'll need to give it more thought.