Tuesday, 11 March 2003

Skill-based Systems

Okay, I threatened to rant about skill-based systems, so here it is: I don't like them.

My reasoning has nothing to do with skill-based systems in and of themselves, but rather has to do with the way they are used, which almost inevitably gives way to munchkinism (and, yes, I'm well aware of the irony of a D&D rules-lawyer ranting about munchkinism).

See, the complaint against class systems I've heard most often goes along the lines of "yes, hours of killing goblins is definately going to make me better at picking locks", or words to that effect. In other words, the complaint that, since the level gives benefits out in a package, some of the corner cases are really silly. It IS stupid that the book-worm arch-mage should necessarily be a bad-ass combatant simply because the system requires him to be high level to cast high level spells, but high level characters are all tough. And, again, the ninja grandmother falls into this category as well.

However, the other game design system posits a set of skills for characters and a pool of XP that can then be spent to increase the skills that the player wants to focus on. (Okay, there is a third advancement scheme, but it's less common. I'll get to it later.)

The problem with the skill-based system in practice is that players will inevitably determine the most "useful" skills. Where useful is defined based on the character they want to play. So, for the combat machine it will be the brawl and firearms skills. For the decker it will be the computer skills, and so on. Either way, there will be a small set of skills chosen, and every single XP that is awarded will then necessarily be placed into these core skills. Everything else will be ignored.

For me, the system that most shows this trait is Vampire, where in almost every game I've ever run or played, every single XP gained went towards the next discipline point, or to one of the skills used to activate those disciplines. In general, combat bunnies started with good skills, and then boosted their characters through disciplines. Occultists started with good occult skills, then added lots of disciplines, and so on. The only exceptions I can recall (and these really are the only ones) came about because the Storyteller was really tight with XP. As a result, it became pointless to try to boost disciplines, since the game would be over before you got anywhere.

Pretty soon you've got a combat machine who is unkillable in combat, but who is likely to crash a stationary car. The decker can solve the P=NP problem before breakfast, but can't tie his own shoe-laces. And the mage can cast an infinite number of wishes per day, but if you ask him to recount some of the basic points from those esoteric tomes he had to study to get this level of skill, he can't, because "Arcane Lore" is a skill that never actualy gets rolled. (Throw in merits and flaws, and the problems get even more rediculous, but that's another rant entirely.)

This would be fine for a few characters, since such specialists do crop up occasionally. However, when it's every character in every game that is so specialised, it becomes irritating. Furthermore, with such specialised characters it becomes difficult to design appropriate challenges. To challenge the combat bunny in a firefight, you need opponents who will slaughter the decker and the mage in an instant. A computer system that challenges the decker is impossible for anyone else. And woe betide the group that needs to rely on their back-up mage because John's kid is sick and he can't make it to the game.

Finally, there is no way to create a viable generalist in such a system, since the munchkins will just roll over you.

I did mention another advancement scheme. This is the one where a critical success on a skill roll naturally increases that skill. Over time, such rolls cause the skill to organically increase. Thus, the skills that get used go up, while the rest stay static. Most such systems also allocate a general pool of XP, which can be spent as above.

These games tend to be slightly better, but only just. The problem here is that a character is specialised by what he does, so instead of identifying the most useful skills and pouring all XP into those, the player just lets the system do it for him. That said, since most characters do make use of non-core skills, these do increase somewhat as well. Still, before too long you can get to the same state, with a group of specialists so skilled that they can't be challenged in their field, but are horribly vulnerable outwith that field.

Anyway, that's my problem with skill-based games in a nutshell.

How would I solve this? I'm inclined to think that skills need to be rated as "core", "non-core" and "incidental". XP is then awarded in three pools. 65% of XP could be assigned to core skills, 25% to non-core, and 10% to incidental skills. XP could be dropped down from more important to less important skills, but not moved the other way. So, core XP could be assigned to non-core skills, but not the other way around. This forces players to pay some attention to the less useful skills, and thus to build more rounded characters.

There are several problems with such a system. Firstly, the definitions of core, non-core and incidental skills are arguable. What if the player and GM disagree? Secondly, there need to be rules controlling how high these skills can become, since a clever munchkin would declare his selected "useful" skills as incidentals, and pour all XP into them, thus bypassing the system. Thirdly, there needs to be a mechanism whereby a core skill becomes non-core, or a non-core skill becomes a core skill. It is not unreasonable to expect people to change over time. Finally, this system is tending back towards class-based design, since all combat bunnies will have a lot of core skills in common, as will all deckers, mages, or whatever.

Thoughts?

10 comments:

  1. Archived comment from me:

    Addendum: ouch, that was longer than I expected.

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  2. Archived comment from Mort:

    Hoom, where to start...

    First off, using storyteller as an example for skill based systems is, less than exemplary to say the least. The list of skills is very rough grained, bundling lots and lots of knowledge into one skill name. Want to shoot something? Doesn't matter if it's a Walter PPK or a vechicle mounted gatling gun, just roll dex + firearms. With skills like that you will inevitably end up with people identifying and picking only the 'best' choices.

    Let me put up a counter to this, which is, admittedly one of my favourite systems, yes you may laugh, it is Rolemaster.

    Rolemaster is level based, you raise your skills upon reaching your next level. But, you have to have used your skills successfully during the time you spent gaining xp to level up to be allowed to raise them, which means if you want to learn a new skill you better study it. Also, the system has more skills than you can shake a stick at, I think the size of the skill list is somewhere in the vincinity of 200. Every weapon is a sepparate skill, and they have to be raised individually.

    But aha, people will still find the most usefull skills and muchkin them up won't they? Well no, because there are limits on how much you can improve in a skill based on which profession you are, you won't find expert fighter lockpickers, but there are some decent ones around, they just arn't as good as the specialised thief, and who can resist raising their skill in things like iceskating and weather watching.

    There is a base list of skills which pretty much anyone can be good at, but I put them down as required skills for basic adventuring, things like jump, sneak, notice stuff and hitting people with sharp objects. Basically, the huge list confuses players, they have too many choices, which makes every character unique in some way. I think this is good. The funny thing is that the warrior might not even be the best fighter in the group (counting pure numbers that is), maybe he has elected to go for a more vide variety of weapons, while the ranger just settled with a longsword and kicks ass with it.

    As you might have guessed, I like skill based systems, but only as long as they have plenty of choices and incentive for people to select a vide variety of skills.

    Your core skills system instantly made me think of Morrowind, a most excellent PC game, which has a very interesting way of handling character creation and leveling. I'll post a brief explanation of the system after I get something to eat.

    Enough rambling for now.

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  3. Archived comment from me:

    I won't laugh at Rolemaster, since I've never played the game, never read the rules, and basically only know of it by reputation. What I have heard hasn't been flattering, though.

    The problem with making every weapon a different skill is twofold. Firstly, a munchkin is likely to select one (or a handful) of the weapons, and focus exclusively on it. There's no incentive to learn lots of weapons when you can just focus on the ones you'll actually use. Additionally, skill with one weapon will inevitably lead to an increased level of proficiency in others. Admittedly, not to the extent indicated in D&D (which is just silly), but certainly to some extent. Moreover, skill with one weapon will also imply a degree of general competence in combat, whether armed or unarmed. Simply knowing which are the vital points to hit and avoid being hit in will prove useful. Modelling this all in a skill-based system becomes hard as the list of skills grows.

    Returning to the wizard I mentioned earlier, let us posit a magic system whereby Wizards learn by reading and pondering on obscure philosophical texts. Let's also assume we have a dozen skills detailing the individual schools of magic, some general spell-casting skills, and a philosophy skill. Most likely, this last skill is going to be the poor man of the bunch, as PCs scrape points together for as much magic as possible. But, any real Wizard would necessarily pick up scarily high levels of skill in philosophy, almost by accident. (Of course, you can counter this by capping all magic skills at the level of the philosophy skill. The further down this line you go, though, the more complex the system gets, until it becomes unplayable.)

    Or what about the version of the same where the books cover all sorts of bizarre subjects, not just philosophy. Then, Wizards will pick up odd levels of philosophy, maths, local and ancient history, theology, chemistry, and anything else the authors thought interesting. Here, you can't really use the capping system, but have the same problem. (Hmm, maybe there you double the cost of magic skills, but award incidental levels in other skills, based on the contents of the book, not the choice of the player.)

    And as for using Storyteller as my example skill-based system was unfair, I'll admit. And I haven't played Morrowind, so I await what you have to say there with eagerness.

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  4. Archived comment from Mort:

    Ah let thee be enlightened by the supremacy of the Rolemaster skill system!

    No seriously, it handles what you described to such a fine point you almost wish every game would use their system. Let's start with muchkin fighters.

    Fighters
    Yes, Rolemaster has weapon groups, whereby certain weapons give you a base skill (usually half of the main) for the other weapons in the group. So if you raise long sword, you will be able to use a broad sword as well, just not as good. General competence in combat is displayed as a bonus given for each level of fighter one has, which goes down as the levels increases, you learn less as you get better.

    I might mention now that rolemaster is d100 based and you calculate your skill by adding lots of numbers together getting something between -50 (for useless morons) to ~. (well not really, but 100 is pretty damn good.) As for learning different weapons, a fighter should always be adept at using a ranged weapon, especially in Rolemaster as arrows are totally bloody lethal. Also, if you go up against Birger the Tin Can Knight, your silly sword isn't going to do much damage, what you need is a good old big ass warhammer. So to be a good fighter, you will need to know atleast three weapons.

    To note is also that you can only raise a skill so much per level, so you will (usually) have extra points to spend on something.

    The wizzzard
    Here is where Rolemaster really shines. As I mentioned before, you have your basic set of 'adventuring' skills, for which you are alotted a certain number of development points per level, depending on your stats. Then you have your secondary skills (That would be things like weather watching, ice skating, pole vaulting, stone lore and about a bazillion others) which are sepparated into groups, scholar, athletics, social etc. Each profession gets a certain number of points to spend in each of these categories, wizzzards of course gets a absolute shitload in scholar skills, but understandably not much in athletics. This means, that any wizzard worth his salts will have a very good repetoair of lore skills and quite often also philosophy and tactical games. (Yes math and advanced math as well, they are dirt cheap for a wizzard, why not pick them up they might come in useful, hell I've used them on several occations playing Rolemaster.)

    Needless to say, magic is raised with your primary skill points, meaning that if you burn it all on magic you better be a damn good runner (hint, atheltics comment above) when your spell points run out. (Interesting point is that an optional rule requires you to use skill points to gain spell points, making it even harder to be a super mage.)

    Ok, ok, I'll stop now, I'm just such a Rolemaster fanboy... but it is by far the most thought out and compelling rules heavy system I've seen so far. Please note the rules heavy part, not to be confused with rules light systems, which is a totally different ballgame.

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  5. Archived comment from Mort:

    Morrowind

    The computer game Morrowind (which I recommend anyone whose computer can handle it to pick up) is of course a computer RPG. What makes it different from most of the other computer RPGs out there at the moment is first off the freedom you get to choose what you want to do. But that's not really the reason I'm writing this, what I want to talk about is the character creation and advancement system.

    Morrowind characters

    As you start out on Morrowind you can either select a precreated profession/class/whathaveyou to play or you can create your own.
    Each class (I'll use this as it is the shortest to type) have three sets of skills, primary, secondary and 'the rest'. (It's not actually called this, but I can't remember everything.) Depending on your class these categories contains different skills, you have ten primary, ten secondary and the rest (30 I think) makes up 'the rest'.

    To go up a level you need ten advances, raising a primary skill gives you one full advance, while secondary gives you a half, and 'the rest' skills give you a fraction. The crux comes in that all skills are also linked to your physical and mental attributes, and at each level raise you can raise three attributes. But the raise can be between two and five points, the multiplier depends on how many skills based on that attribute you've raised before leveling up. Again, primary skills gives you the most and so on. But this means you want to have a very varied set of primary skills, because if all your primary skills are dexterity based (combat skills for instance) you end up having a very high dexterity but not much else. But you don't want to raise your primary skills too much either because then you gain levels too fast for the rest of your skills to keep up.

    It's not a perfect system, but it is a nice idea, it might translate quite well into pen and paper...

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  6. Archived comment from me:

    Re: Rolemaster

    It would appear that Rolemaster is what I would be looking for in a skill-based system. Alas, rules-heavy systems are scary :-)

    Or, alternatively, in order to really benefit from using a rules-heavy system, you need to know the system quite well. And this includes both the players and the GM, since the game is likely to slow right down if the GM has the whole burden of the rules to deal with. Alas, finding players familiar with anything other than d20 and Storyteller (and maybe Shadowrun) can be quite a challenge. For some reason, people don't want to have to work for their entertainment.

    Re: Morrowind

    It sounds like that advancement scheme might fall into the same trap as I mentioned earlier - if you can identify a small group of vital skills, you should be able to munchkin the system. Of course, this is avoided if they've managed to make all (or at least many) of the skills important to characters.

    Rules Familiarity

    Speaking of rules familiarity, as I mentioned above, one of things that I've admired in a handful of games (most notably Chess) is those few games where you can learn enough of the systems really quickly, and get playing, but where there's also a whole load of subtlety/complexity under the surface for those who are interested to benefit from. Some other systems are fairly shallow, in that you can learn them quickly, and then that's it, while others have a high set-up cost.

    Some cases: Storyteller is really easy to learn from the get-go. It took me about 2 minutes to have a firm grasp on the system, including combat. Unfortunately, once you've done that, there's not much more to consider.

    Chess took me about a week (I think) to learn all the rules of, to the point where I was actually comfortable with them. It was years before I could beat my grandfather, though. And, frankly, I still suck.

    D&D is a special case, since I learned with the old red-box, which was really good, and very simple, and then moved up to AD&D 2nd Edition, which is a lot more complex. That said, I think it probably does have a quick start up, provided you don't have to create a character, but does provide lots more options for those who want them. Then again, I don't think those options are really what I'm looking for, since all they currently seem to do is provide means for power-gamers who really know the system to build better characters.

    Finally, there was Children of the Sun, which we did get started with quickly. However, I always felt there was something lacking from a rules-knowledge point of view. Then again, maybe I just didn't get it.

    I'm not sure where I'm going with this one, but it is something that Roger and I briefly discussed some time ago. I think the ideal system would be one where you could start with really quickly, and not really be losing much, while at the same time be a game that you can get into the subtleties of, and have a dig about. I'm not sure such a design is even possible, since most of the complexity in Chess comes from its competitive side, and the strategies you get from that, rather than the rules.

    Still, I think it's something to consider.

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  7. Archived comment from me:

    Of course, I was much younger when I first learned chess.

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  8. Archived comment from Mort:

    Well of course Morrowind is quite easy to Munchkin the shit out of, but that's because it is a computer game. I just think that the skill system could be an interesting base for a more complex pen and paper game.

    The again, maybe not, I suck at designing rules.

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  9. Archived comment from Mort:

    Funny thing is, I think Rolemaster and D&D are alike when it comes to the rule heaviness of them. Creating a character is tedious and confusing, but once you've set off and got the thing running, it is pretty darn easy to use. Roll a d100 add skill, beat the difficulty level to succeed. Not far from the d20 variant of same.

    Of course, there are five books of optional rules and tables for you to add as you please, so you can end up with a horrible mutation of a system if you are not careful. But the basic premise is pretty much the same, hell, they even had conversion tables from Rolemaster to d&d 2nd ed in the old Character Law.

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  10. Archived comment from me:

    I agree fully. Most of the complexity in D&D lies in character management, and it sounds like the same is true of Rolemaster (haven't read it since this morning). Both have the potential to fly out of all reason by adding optional rules.

    Morrowind & Munchkinism

    Everyone munchkins computer games - it's expected. The only way to avoid it is to design the system so that every skill, asset and tool is useful and necessary. Suddenly, since everything's equally good, you have lots of choice.

    There was an article on the Wizards web-site about firearms in d20 Modern recently, in which there was a rebuttal to the comment that firearms damage has too few potential values (2d4, 2d6, 2d8,, 2d10 or 2d12), and that this made things all the same. The contrary view was basically that, since everything else was much the same, you could choose a gun based on other factors, such as magazine size or the availability of the silencer. (This was in relation to the new version of "Ultramodern Firearms" by Green Ronin.)

    This is as opposed to AD&D 2, where the Longsword was the best weapon in every respect, and you needn't consider anything else.

    And, yes, the Morrowind skill system does look interesting, and certainly would work for a Pen & Paper game (since we know it works for a PC game).

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